Moron Suits

[adweird]

40% more efficient? 6 seconds dropped in 100 meters?

http://www.swimnews.com/News/view/6517

aussie's considering banning the suits...

http://www.swimnews.com/News/view/6502

i like craig lord's 'skin' endorsement:

http://www.swimnews.com/News/view/6491


- looks like a national swimming body will have to make a move first, because it doesn't appear as if fina is going to start any sort of regulation on technological suits in our sport any time soon. craig lord seems to have developed a firm position that pushes for swimming to maintain its original 'purity'. i have said it before, but i would love to see a 'throwback' meet with big name international competitors! it seems im becoming more and more nostalgic the longer these new suits have been around - anyone's opinion changed/developed on the Ole Suit Debate now that we have hindsight and a glimpse of what may be coming in the near future?

[Scott Bay]

I watched a HS kid take 7 seconds off her best 200 free time in a championship meet wearing a 'technical' suit from Blue Seventy ( read: wetsuit) . They were formerly Ironman wetsuits but they are within FINA tolerances and have an approval letter to back it up. Now I have had great tapers in my past but I gotta ask...7 seconds? Wearing that suit so a kid could advance from regionals? I did not have a kid that lost an opportunity because of it but I think I am getting a feel for the ire of folks that claim it is technical doping. Suits that cost $400 USD at a High School meet? To shave even 7 seconds off to get a time that would still be considered ho hum? I guess I feel like this is suit spinach (like Popeye*) ...Just buy something and you will be fast. I would hate to see technology and money be the difference maker and I would hate to see the kids that swim a 50 free in a time slower than a 3 legged dog begging their parents for a new suit thinking that is what stands between them and greatness instead of doing the hard work in the pool.

*For those of you too young to remember...Popeye was this cartoon character that whenever he needed extra strength to overcome his problems/obstacles, he just ate a can of spinach and became superhuman.

Just keep it real

[chris8sirhc]

Is that what happens in other sports where equipment costs alot of money?

[DARTH VADER]

I HATE the suits. Hate them...
Back to the grape smugglers.
I really truly hate them...

[John Smith]

Seems like no one can break a WR without a technological suit now.

[chris8sirhc]

I dont understand how you can begin to make that level of assertion. How do you know that all of those swims would not have been just as fast with only a speedo on. Nobody does, and nobody ever will.

What % of drag comes from surface drag in swimming?

[NVF]

I dont understand how you can begin to make that level of assertion. How do you know that all of those swims would not have been just as fast with only a speedo on. Nobody does, and nobody ever will.

I don't see how you can say that - surely we are getting a pretty good idea over time? A friend of mine recently set a GB Masters record for 1500m free with 16:58 age 45. His lifetime PB from when he was 20 is only 8 seconds faster than that. In training he's like a machine, always within a few seconds of 18:15 in briefs. It isn't that he tried harder in the race, I know the effort he puts into a max effort 1500m in training, and there just isn't much more he can give in the race. Last year he did 17:46 in a race in a legskin. This year he wore a full body Diana Shining Arrow, i.e. LZR equivalent, and that has to be what took the extra time off because he wasn't going that much faster in training. So I conclude the suit took 5 seconds per 100m off his time, and for an even faster suit to take 6 seconds off is therefore not beyond the bounds of possibility.

I could give examples from my own swimming as well. Prior to some recent meets I did several max effort 100m free swims in training from a push off, on different days, and did numerous swims within 0.5 seconds of each other. In the two races I was 4-5 seconds faster in an FS Pro legskin vs briefs in training. I haven't tried one of the new suits yet, but I found the FS Pro to be significantly faster than what came before it, and I see no reason why the LZR can't be faster still.

IMO it has gone too far. I'm not good enough to think about breaking any records, I swim mainly for the satisfaction of doing PBs, but it makes me wonder what the point is of setting PBs this year when I'll be faster next year just because the swimwear has got faster. I'm seriously thinking of rejecting the new suits and just going for personal comparability and to heck with medals at meets.

[chris8sirhc]

you would be laughed out of the scientific community if you tried to tell anybody what you just posted.

Swimming is about winning the race. As far as international competition goes, it doesnt matter who went what time when in the past. What matters is who wins the race. Who cares if the current generation is blowing your old records out of the pool, you should be happy for them. It would happen anyway, suits or not.

[NVF]

you would be laughed out of the scientific community if you tried to tell anybody what you just posted.

Rubbish, people who exhibit a very high degree of consistency in their maximal effort swims would be seen as perfect for studies on the performance gains of suits.

Swimming is about winning the race.

Not for everyone it isn't, for some people it's about personal achievement. Only one person can be Olympic champion in each event, if it were only about winning, most people wouldn't bother to take part.

Who cares if the current generation is blowing your old records out of the pool, you should be happy for them. It would happen anyway, suits or not.

I want to know the answer to questions such as would anyone have ever gone faster than Kieren Perkins' 1994 400m free time if the suits hadn't been invented?

[Scott Bay]

I dont understand how you can begin to make that level of assertion. How do you know that all of those swims would not have been just as fast with only a speedo on. Nobody does, and nobody ever will.

What % of drag comes from surface drag in swimming?

Here is something from the Blue Seventy Website:

Yamamoto SCS fabric with hydrophobic skin and a drag coefficient of only 0.032 (over 50 times lower than skin), that reduces friction drag through the water.
Helix technology improves fi t and allows for a better swim stroke.
Available in a long leg design — for increased skin coverage and less drag through the water — and in a short leg design cut to the knee.
Approved for use in all FINA events.

So yes there is scientific evidence that it reduces drag. I also teach physics and have a background in hydrodynamics. Anything that affects that boundry layer and reduces that turbulent flow and produces laminar flow as well as reducing the curlean efffect of drag will indeed be diffrent than skin.

I am sure I would not be laughed out of the scientific community. The suit manufacturers know this too. That is what they are marketing.

Skin is in.

[chris8sirhc]

Again,....What % of drag comes from surface drag in swimming?

Ever heard of terms like "double blind", or "placebo effect"?

[Scott Bay]

Yes. I think you missed the science part though. Hydrodynamic forces depend in a complex way on the viscosity of the fluid. As the fluid moves past the object, the molecules right next to the surface stick to the surface. The molecules just above the surface are slowed down in their collisions with the molecules sticking to the surface. These molecules in turn slow down the flow just above them. The farther one moves away from the surface, the fewer the collisions affected by the object surface. This creates a thin layer of fluid near the surface in which the velocity changes from zero at the surface to the free stream value away from the surface. Engineers call this layer the boundary layer because it occurs on the boundary of the fluid.

The drag coefficient of any surface is highly dependent on the topography and density of that surface and any bouyancy (positive or negative) that may part of this equation. The Real Science, since you asked, is defined by the Reynolds Number which as I am sure you know, is the ratio of inertial forces to viscous forces (sticky stuff). Regardless of the percentage of drag which will change from swimmer to swimmer due to the dimensions of ones body (I am sure we can also agree that some bodies are aesthetically more pleasing than others) and therefore is in no way to be considered a controlled variable (for drag not good looks), the portion that we study is the materials science and how that effects that boundary later and the Reynolds Number.

From the equation Re = V * r * l / mu I am sure you can do your own test with your body and your suit and figure it out too.

Nice use of Placebo effect though.

Simply add the language 'porous material' to the Fina Rule book on suits and it all goes away.

[chris8sirhc]

While the drag due to a swimmers shape will change from person to person, from what i remember, the vast majority of the total drag in cases such as this comes from the shape of the object, not the surface of the object. That site that was quoted never said that it offered a 40% decrease in total drag.

[Scott Bay]

I do see your point and you are correct in the assumption that shape has a great impact on drag (see my tough in cheek comment about bodies) but what we are really looking at is changing the surface of that body to something more hydrodynamic. The surface characteristics of that body have a great deal to do with drag as well. This is why jets are not only shaped the way that they are but given a smooth 'skin' rather than covering them in a material more like corrugated cardboard. There are compounds there are also applied to NASCAR cars that reduce drag without changing the shape as well as some bottom paints applied to racing yachts that will increase drag but be durable (like Poly suits) or decrease drag as well (much more expensive) so if you could 'buy' a 2% (made up number but seems reasonable) reduction in terminal velocity in terms of time, would you?

My contention is simply that if we have to live with the suits, lets keep them out of the hands of folks who are looking for a shortcut. It produces an unfair advantage to a less talented/trained swimmer. On the other hand, at the international level, if everyone has them then I am OK with that.

I hope this clears up what I am trying to say. Scientifically speaking the suits are faster. Yes the athlete still has to swim the race but terminal velocity that is limited by drag has been altered by technology.

[NVF]

Again,....What % of drag comes from surface drag in swimming?

It isn't a fixed %.

If you want some exact figures, you could order a copy of this study where they calculated the breakdown of total drag into its components of pressure (form) drag, frictional drag and wave drag:
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15835287

They say that at higher speeds, frictional drag is the biggest contributor to total drag for swimmers wearing shoulder to knee or shoulder to ankle suits:

"Introduction: The drag (D) of seven (7) male swimmers wearing five (5) swimsuits was investigated. Methods: The drag was measured during passive surface tows at speeds from 0.2 up to 2.2 m.s-1 and during starts and push-offs. The swimsuits varied in body coverage from shoulder-to-ankle (SA), shoulder-to-knee (SK), waist-to-ankle (WA) and waist-to-knee (WK) and briefs (CS). Results: Differences in total drag among the suits were small, but significant. In terms of least drag at 2.2 m.s-1, the swimsuits ranked: SK, SA, WA, WK and CS. The drag was decomposed into its pressure drag (DP), skin friction drag (DSF) and wave drag (Dw) components using nonlinear regression and classical formulations for each drag component. The transition-to-turbulence Reynolds number and decreasing frontal area with speed were taken into account. The transition-to-turbulence Reynolds number location was found to be very close to the swimmers' leading edge. i.e. the head. Flow was neither completely laminar, nor completely turbulent; but rather, it was transitional over most of the body. The Dp contributed the most to drag at low speeds (<1.0 m.s-1) and DW the least at all speeds. DSF contributed the most at higher speeds for SA and SK suits, whereas Dp and DW were reduced compared with the other suits. Conclusion: The decomposition of swimmer drag into DSF, DP and DW suggests that increasing DSF on the upper-body of a swimmer reduces DP and DW by tripping the boundary layer and attaching the flow to the body from the shoulder to the knees. It is possible that body suits that cover the torso and legs may reduce drag and improve performance of swimmers."

As for a double blind experiment, clearly that isn't possible when comparing briefs with a suit. I think we are getting into philosophical realms here in terms of what constitutes knowledge. Clearly someone can know something to be true without it being necessary for everyone else in the world to agree with them, otherwise we wouldn't be able to declare that we know the earth isn't flat etc.